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Why I Don't Like Feminists: the MLK Day Special

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Jan. 15th, 2007 | 08:40 am

I was asked to explain why I so dislike feminists. I actually wasn't going to post these thoughts at all, (which I mainly wrote as an exercise), just because I know it's only going to rattle cages. But then RAW died and I thought, Eh... wotthehell.

Don't worry; I don't expect to change anyone's mind. But I like to think things over and I know some of you do too. Hell, maybe you'll change my mind.

There are lots of people I like who I think erroneously cling to the "feminist" label, and it's the support of that label that I primarily object to. Labels are far more powerful than people seem to think. This may seem like an attack on individual feminists, but it's not meant to be. For one thing, I only dislike feminists when they're being feminists. Luckily, there aren't many opportunities to actively be a feminist anymore because "feminism" in present-day Western Civilization is almost dead. About all you can do as a feminist is complain or tell all your friends they're beautiful just the way they are... and both those things are totally insipid.


free tracking
Look, how's about I just go ahead and explain, shall I?

First: "Feminism" is a Meaningless Word.

Feminism has become hard to object to, because even if you simply say "I'm not a feminist," feminists will haul out their oblique dictionary definition to prove that actually, if you're a decent person, you are.

fem·i·nism (fĕm'ə-nĭz'əm)
n.

1. Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes.
2. The movement organized around this belief.


In America, if you're an educated person, denying any belief with the word "equality" in it is the social equivalent of goose-stepping down 5th Avenue in a Klu Klux Klan robe. As a result, there are a lot of hunted-looking people out there wandering around going, "What? Yes! I'm a feminist... I guess..." Hard to get a lot of conviction out of these people, though, when you're not terrorizing them with social anxiety. You know why? Because as good as those words sound, they're functionally useless, and deep down we know it. What the hell is social equality, anyway? What is economic equality? Ask ten different people and you'll get ten different answers. But what really bothers me is that, even if we could come to a consensus about the meaning of these various forms of "equality", we would still be forced to believe in something that does not now and will never exist.

Humans just don't operate well on systems of equality. According to the U.S. Declaration of Independence, we hold these truth to be self-evident, that all men are created equal. Again, sounds good, but those words were written by a white male slave owner. Capitalism has consistently proven itself more functional, worldwide, than communism, because it's built on the presupposition of inequality. We're apes, and there will always be an alpha among apes. We will always desire a leader, always covet our neighbor's treasures, always strive for power over ourselves and our surroundings. That's because we're not all born exactly the same. Not everyone is beautiful just the way they are (in fact, most of us could really do with a wash every couple days). Not everyone is special and unique, usually because they don't want to be. They'd rather fit in socially. You can paint your world in mental colors of "equality" if you want to but:

A) You'll be wrong.
B) Your world will be boring, and
C) You'll be an insult to every single person who has ever tried to be better than the selfish, confused, paltry creatures human beings have perennially shown ourselves to be.

It's seems like it should be fine to believe in unattainable ideals. People inevitably believe in something, and it's nice to believe in things that give us hope. But hope isn't a real thing. I'll tell you what could be real, though: intellectual freedom, and that's what you get when you stop forcing people to believe in myths like "equality."

Second: Feminism has Become Self-Defeating.

Because it's almost impossible to rally the masses around the meaningless abstractions in "Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes," we have this t-shirt slogan instead:

Feminism is the radical notion that women are people too.


Again, how can you argue with such a basic and wholly self-defending statement? The sarcasm in "radical notion" off-sets the simple truth of "women are people too." Very effective. But it is in this phrase that I find the core of why I don't like feminists. I don't need or want a t-shirt to defend the idea that I am a person too. I don't want anyone to do that. I know I'm a person too. Anyone in Western Civilization who does not, by now, have the sense to assume that I'm person too, will probably not be persuaded by arguing, and those arguing on my behalf will come off as shrill and defensive. That embarrasses me. And if a group's fundamental philosophy is an embarrassment to the people it claims to represent, it is useless.

I might have a shred of respect for those t-shirts if they were written in Farsi. And being worn in Iran. That probably wouldn't last too long, though.

You're not going to change anyone's mind if they're so dumb or dogmatic that they don't already believe women are people too. You're just going to have to believe in yourself. And if you really believe in yourself, maybe you can help other women believe in themselves, as opposed to the imaginary power of some pointless group.

But why stop with women?

Third: Feminism Has Begun to Hinder the Development of Individuals and Society.

Once you strip away the bullshit surrounding definitions of feminism, I'll admit that you're still left with one genuinely decent slogan:

Feminism is about the right to make choices.


That's great. But, in its own way, so is the civil rights movement, which, despite a brief mingling period in the seventies, has historically distinguished itself from the feminist special interest groups. In fact, the civil rights movement fights for the rights of both men and women, of all races. But if you feel unwelcome in the civil rights movement, what about human rights? Social rights? It seems to me that you can easily support thoughtfulness and understanding without calling yourself a feminist.

Nevertheless, feminists continue to support their group label, and there are two good reasons: It's gained moral authority, and the clear backing of a social group, and those are powerful things.

Group labels give people de facto moral authority. Christians do the same thing among themselves, alternately lauding and condemning behavior as Christian or un-godly. In college, we used to label the things we hated capitalist, and, a generation back, facist. This is the same tactic used by institutionalized forms of brainwashing worldwide: You're either with us, or against us. It cuts independent thought dead in its tracks, and is a breeding ground for dogmatism. When most people say they don't like feminists, what they're talking about is dogmatic feminists. Dogma is what happens when a belief system can no longer inspire devotion on its own merits.

We have the vote and I'm grateful. I'm glad we, women, gained the power to vote in our own best interests, to educate ourselves, and to fight for what we believe, in and out of the home. I'm even somewhat grateful to second-wave feminists for normalizing women like me. I'd probably still be in a mental hospital if it weren't for them. But the major battles are over now. The issues that remain should be looked at as social issues, not women's issues, and I'm talking about rape and abortion laws, gender education in and out of the classroom, and equal wages for equal work, among other things. Everyone benefits by addressing these things--and they should be addressed--but to continue to parade them under the "feminist" banner is to shoot human rights in the foot. Feminism has spent the last few decades alienating people with its dogmatism and its historic inability to reconcile itself with a multicultural world. These issues need to be addressed as social problems, under a new banner, so that everyone can feel welcome to the discussion.

4. IN CONCLUSION (until someone kicks my teeth in, anyway...)

I don't support the defunct and potentially destructive feminist label out of self-respect. Feminism doesn't appear to be meaningful on its own terms, and those who get attached to the label are vulnerable to dogmatism. I'd rather try to think independently, and fuck up the world on my own responsibility. Luckily, individual women have had self-respect and the ability to fuck up the world since long before feminism came along, and they'll still have it once it's finished killing itself off. I bet you can think of the reason why, too...


(hint: the answer's on a t-shirt.)

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Comments {101}

Reema

(no subject)

from: [info]_abulafia
date: Jan. 15th, 2007 02:10 pm (UTC)
Link

::reaches for popcorn::

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Leafy

(no subject)

from: [info]wonderleafy
date: Jan. 15th, 2007 02:12 pm (UTC)
Link

Yeah, you really gotta want this one.


It was fun to write, though.

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Ms. Danson

(no subject)

from: [info]ms_danson
date: Jan. 15th, 2007 03:09 pm (UTC)
Link

*remembers something*
*goes and finds them*
*tosses two essays into the ring*

What Feminism Was by [info]siderea
Odds and Ends (pshrinkery, tech, school, atheism, feminism, me) by [info]siderea

*sits back and waits to see what happens*

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Draco Draconis

(no subject)

from: [info]dracodraconis
date: Jan. 15th, 2007 03:33 pm (UTC)
Link

Not to mention
[Error: Irreparable invalid markup ('<a [...] structurelessness</a>') in entry. Owner must fix manually. Raw contents below.]

Not to mention <a href="http://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm"The Tyranny of Structurelessness</a>, although it is highly relevant outside feminism.

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Leafy

thanks for linking me

from: [info]wonderleafy
date: Jan. 15th, 2007 04:14 pm (UTC)
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I think those are both excellent. I doubt she and I would have any major disagreements.

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Ron

(no subject)

from: [info]ropetrick
date: Jan. 15th, 2007 03:33 pm (UTC)
Link

Good enough. Frankly, you could have bumped the word "shrill" up about eight paragraphs and had my full support right out of the gate.

Because the bottom line for me is that these people are largely unpleasant. I don't want to argue with or against them; I want them to shut up. Neo-nazis, frat boys, feminist womyn, fundamentalist Christians, nouveau riche construction mini-magnates, and all technical college employees share this trait: whatever they're saying, they're saying it in such an unpleasant way that I want to run away. Or push them down.

My wife went on an obssessive tirade against Hooters the other day. I don't know what she has against breasts, or the appreciation of breasts, and I'll bet she doesn't either. I got the sense it just seemed like the stance her college Women's Studies professor would have taken.

If feminists want to help women, they should talk to the Hooters folks about those damned gym shorts. They are not attractive, and thereby undermine these women's efforts to efficiently turn male crassness into tip dollars.

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Leafy

AND WHAT OF THOSE BOLOGNA-COLORED TIGHTS?

from: [info]wonderleafy
date: Jan. 15th, 2007 03:50 pm (UTC)
Link

Well, the exercise I was going for here was to see if I could make certain ideas comprehensible (if not convincing) to people who are dogmatically attached to counter-assumptions. I wrote all of this a second time in four short paragraphs, but it just wasn't going to be as effective to my ideal audience. Putting "shrill" up too high would have put some standard defenses up way too soon.

I think it's interesting that Christians and feminists so often fail to understand that the only way to convince people who have fundamentally different assumptions is TO BE BETTER PEOPLE. Anyone whose belief system is based on unattainable ideals has an obligation to make it look like those ideals WORK, otherwise they'll never convince the skeptics. And it's a hell of a lot easier to be a skeptic.

P.S. Anomalogue has been gushing about that Borges audio lecture... could you? would you? maybe... send it my way? Please?

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Susan B. Anthony Day Orgy

from: [info]anomalogue
date: Jan. 15th, 2007 05:03 pm (UTC)
Link

As you point out, feminists are in a strange situation. They keep insisting how reasonable and undeniable their position is, and demonstrating to anyone who will hold still and listen how they are already feminists, whether they like it or not...but yet, the perception persists that feminists are a bunch of irrelevant killjoys that they'd rather not agree with, despite all agreement. So, what's the aim of the proselytizing?

Maybe... Maybe this vague sense of unfinished business so many feminists have is nothing more than a failure to cap things off with yet another national holiday. Really, if you want people on your side, give them a drunken day off from work. Clearly, every struggle for equality should be marked with a holiday. That way you can measure the movements post-relevance success, with a simple formula:
Success = (fun of the celebration) / (apparent pointlessness)


St Patrick's Day and Gay Pride Day are the standard by which all other post-relevance political victory celebrations are measured.

I'm now going out into the street to drink malt liquor with all the other MLK revelers.

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Leafy

WE GAVE 'EM A COIN WHAT MORE CAN YOU ASK FOR???

from: [info]wonderleafy
date: Jan. 15th, 2007 06:04 pm (UTC)
Link

WINNER FOR GREATEST COMMENT EVER.

OMG, you thought of everything.

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Seal

(no subject)

from: [info]sealwhiskers
date: Jan. 15th, 2007 05:10 pm (UTC)
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The best political systems I have ever seen (and by best I mean least amount of homeless and poor-in the gutter people, most equal health care and best educated per capita) are systems of mixed capitalist and socialist values (if not always parties, since those are also mulit-party systems).

The worst systems I have ever seen are strict capitalist systems and communism systems. They are equally vile.

Totally speaking from first hand experience here.

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Leafy

(no subject)

from: [info]wonderleafy
date: Jan. 15th, 2007 05:15 pm (UTC)
Link

I'm not making a judgment call (on this issue, anyway), I'm just saying that we sure seem to like our systems of economic and social inequality... because we get them.

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(no subject)

from: [info]anomalogue
date: Jan. 15th, 2007 05:29 pm (UTC)
Link

When my family lived in Canada, it took us months to get over the shock of not only not being traumatized by government ministries, but actually receiving a quality of service that surpassed that of most private businesses in the USA. I remember having the realization that maybe there is no one ideal political order... then realizing how strange it was to even need to have that realization...

I've wondered if the US government isn't just a parody of a government--a straw-man organization created by the international business community to misconceive, mismanage and otherwise bungle government social programs--a sort of head-on-a-stake to scare people away from socialism and into pure capitalism.

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Nicholas Thurkettle

It's a Small World of Movements After All...

from: [info]theory_of_chaos
date: Jan. 15th, 2007 05:23 pm (UTC)
Link

(Yeah, we're all asking for trouble on this here thread today)

I think my time in San Francisco and LA, and the political awakening that's happened throughout my 20's, has made me deeply and instantly suspicious of "-isms". Not because I doubt their passion, or that there's a desire to do good lurking somewhere in their movement, it's this military draft mentality that says if you don't become a foot soldier in OUR war, it is a sign of your PREJUDICE.

You are simply not allowed these days to pick and choose your battles to make the world a better place. If you sign one petition, your name is sold to every crank with an axe to grind and a bulk mail stamp. If you walk by a rally there's accusation in every third set of eyes. They don't care about your heart or mind, they want your BODY and, preferably, your WALLET as well.

I can know in my heart that burkhas are cloth prisons and African babies shouldn't starve or have to breath gas burnoff from refineries and the death penalty hasn't done squat to reduce the violent crime rate, but I only have one life to live and when it comes to volunteering my time, sweat and money to improve things, it's my "right to choose" where I'm going to make that little push one person can make. And in the meantime, I haven't turned any black people down for a home loan, I'm conscientious about birth control and I vote in every election. SO LEAVE OFF ALREADY.

Fifty, sixty years ago we didn't have the technology to understand the misery happening beyond our communities. "Think Globally, Act Locally" was simply a matter of practicality. Nowadays we can have a celebrity catfight over which third world country it's more righteous to buy orphans from, and I'll bet you 90 percent of the people who wave signs and yell couldn't even name the members of their own city council.

I wanted to say all this once to the Lyndon LaRouche supporter who was standing outside my grocery store shrieking at people that they were all sheep and shoving clipboards under their faces, but I had salad greens to buy.

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Leafy

Re: It's a Small World of Movements After All...

from: [info]wonderleafy
date: Jan. 15th, 2007 06:13 pm (UTC)
Link

My basic theory is that almost everything people do in Western Civilization is done in an effort to ERADICATE BOREDOM AT ALL COSTS. Whenever I see PETA protesters, or people picketing against gay marriage, I can only think, Damn, but they must have been short on plans this weekend.

Of course, also, in my heart, I just don't believe picketing means a good goddamn to politicians or voters.

There were massive protests at D.C. over the new plan to send more troops to Iraq. I'm SO waiting to hear how Bush changed his mind.

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jarsofwind

I wasn't going to try this, but...

from: [info]jarsofwind
date: Jan. 15th, 2007 05:27 pm (UTC)
Link

I'm a feminist. You know that much already because you've known me for a long time. But for me, it means something a little different.

I agree - the way you've described "feminism," it is a defunct and potentially destructive label. The one I'd still hold onto is the notion that feminism is the right to make choices, but yes, that is a civil or human right. I'm a feminist anyway.

I'm a feminist because I believe in revising the historical narrative that has largely ignored or misrepresented women and other subaltern groups. While I acknowledge that I could do just as well to rework that historical narrative to include these other subaltern groups, I am aware that I am only one person taking on a couple of graduate degrees, and I can't pretend I can rewrite the histories of everyone, let alone the histories of women. But I can revise the way we view gender roles in early America if I write about it and teach history differently than it was taught to me. This doesn't necessarily mean placing women in the center of the historical narrative - but it can mean shifting the focus slightly and looking at aspects of life that have been forsaken for the "real" histories of supposedly male-dominated politics and governments. Additionally, I make an effort to explain that I'm a gender historian, as opposed to a women's historian - it means I look at relationships instead of one group or another.

On another note, I am also a feminist because whether or not I feel like I have the right to make choices, there are still people out there who, while they would never claim to be sexist, still engage in sexist behaviors without necessarily realizing it. For example: http://quixote322.livejournal.com/457416.html
Also:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070112/ap_on_re_us/take_my_wife_s_name
In CA, a man who wants to take his wife's name "must file a petition, pay more than $300, place a public notice for weeks in a local newspaper and then appear before a judge." It's not even close to as complicated or costly for a woman to take her husband's name. Why?
I mean, it seems like it's silly or pointless, but when you think about it...why?

I'm not trying to "turn you into a feminist" or asking you to embrace a label, but I am wondering if this at least provided a different perspective. Let me know...

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Leafy

You know I always like to hear your opinion, H...

from: [info]wonderleafy
date: Jan. 15th, 2007 05:58 pm (UTC)
Link

Actually, in my original (and much more inflammatory draft), I included the caveat in my "feminism is useless" statements, "except to people still in university." You and I both know that's not a compliment. University is its own special reality, and a great many passions and causes are artificially constructed in an effort to find something unique to care about for one's thesis.

Now, I happen to actually think your goal is a genuinely laudable one. Rewriting history with a stronger sense of the women involved could very well change the way young women see their very personhoods and potential. But I wonder if using the label "feminist" may not hamper you and your worthy goal later. UCSC is still proud to be feminist, but large swaths of academia (not to mention the business and civilian worlds at large), are not. You can keep the label, but you may very well find yourself stuck in a really dumb argument about authorial bias when pitching some textbook to publishers.

My major problem with feminists and feminism is that they have so many goals I support, but clinging to what I can only see as an unnecessary label causes them to hamper the very causes they undertake.

What do you think?

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(no subject)

from: [info]photosense
date: Jan. 15th, 2007 07:03 pm (UTC)
Link

what would RAW say?

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Leafy

(no subject)

from: [info]wonderleafy
date: Jan. 15th, 2007 07:10 pm (UTC)
Link

I don't fnord know.


But his example taught me to think fnord critically about things you're Not Supposed to fnord Say. And I didn't want to let him down. (fnord)

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(no subject)

from: [info]j_is_for_jihad
date: Jan. 15th, 2007 07:16 pm (UTC)
Link

I think you're saying that at heart, in 2007 the desire to claim feminism is no longer about identifying one's self, but classifying all the OTHER people.

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Leafy

Basic mistrust of organized groups

from: [info]wonderleafy
date: Jan. 15th, 2007 07:32 pm (UTC)
Link

I'm not sure it ever really WAS about identifying one's self. But then, I am not exactly what you'd call a TEAM PLAYER.

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Deep Sonar

I dislike only people I know

from: [info]chocolatebark
date: Jan. 15th, 2007 08:13 pm (UTC)
Link

I know some feminists who is great people, and some feminists who are sort of jerks.

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Leafy

How quickly the coin do flip

from: [info]wonderleafy
date: Jan. 15th, 2007 08:15 pm (UTC)
Link

YOU IS OPPRESSIN GUD WIMMIN BY CALLIN DEM FEMINIZZT.

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Brad

(no subject)

from: [info]doesnotequal
date: Jan. 15th, 2007 08:13 pm (UTC)
Link

I agree with your assessment, mainly because it doesn't conflict with any of the static-but-unspoken beliefs I hold. I know what I know, if you know what I mean.

As for the t-shirt slogan, my vote goes to "I'm With Stupid."

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Leafy

(no subject)

from: [info]wonderleafy
date: Jan. 15th, 2007 08:18 pm (UTC)
Link

Well, by god, we aim to please.

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I'm the Devil's candy, boys.  Trust me.

(no subject)

from: [info]mehinda
date: Jan. 15th, 2007 08:36 pm (UTC)
Link

I consider myself a feminist. I find it better for me to define feminism as an array of actions one (or a collective) can take to correct pervasive male dominance within a culture rather than an essentializing label to describe a belief.

The one thing that I see with your post (at least the first two major points in it) is that you seem to take issue with pop-feminism, with the soundbite philosophy of correcting male-dominated systems in society. I think if you look at any political or social movement and examine its more popular forms, you'll find an equal amount of labels and definitions to criticize as overly essentialist and meaningless. That says a lot more about the nature of essentializing than the philosophy or movement being essentialized.

I agree with you that the definitions provided by pro-feminists are pretty bland and serve a main purpose to affect moral superiority; likewise, anti-feminist movements have their roots in misogyny just like anti-civil rights movements have their roots in racism, religious intolerance, sexism, and a vested interest in maintaining the existing systems of power. I find it just as frustrating confronting an anti-feminist who separates herself from her "shrill" counterparts as I do confonting the American economically and socially disadvantaged who continue to vote their oppressors into power out of some belief of shared moral convictions. I was very glad to not read that in your post.

Even if I were to agree that the major battles of feminism are over in my country, there are many other places in the world where this is not true. Also, I'm not sure I either understand or agree with your supposition that the goal of feminism (or pro-woman human rights) is to fuck up the world, or that it should be enough that women have enjoyed that ability throughout history. It isn't enough, at least not for me.

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Leafy

(no subject)

from: [info]wonderleafy
date: Jan. 15th, 2007 09:23 pm (UTC)
Link

Well, as I said above in another discussion above, it seems to me that the crazy/ugly parts of any philosophical or religious group (Christians, for example), will always get far more press than their moderates. The only reason why that should concern moderate feminists (who unlike Christians don't have their immortal souls riding on the line) is because if they DO hope to cause change, it is far too likely that the gradually failing "feminist" label will only serve to hinder and mark their own work. That's very unfortunate.

Oh, and I'm not saying that the goal of feminism is to fuck up the world. I'm saying that the reason I CAN do that is because I'm a person too.

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Ethel the Frog

(no subject)

from: [info]ethelthefrog
date: Jan. 15th, 2007 10:19 pm (UTC)
Link

Oh, flash us your tits and get back in the kitchen.

;)

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Leafy

(no subject)

from: [info]wonderleafy
date: Jan. 15th, 2007 10:49 pm (UTC)
Link

You know I WOULD too...

...gotta get that soup on...

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Nation of Tire Sale

(no subject)

from: [info]tdaschel
date: Jan. 16th, 2007 06:02 am (UTC)
Link

recalling how much you love Indie Rock* (!)
i'm remembering a remark Kristin Hersh made
not too.too out of line with your own (she
was being pressured - oh - about a million
years ago why she wasn't involved with the
Lilith Fair: "Kristin! you've been such an
inspiration! why don't you play with us? why?
WHY?" -- i think she responded - politely -
that the ghettoization of music wasn't, for
her, much of a solution to anything...).

[classic Indie Rocker strategy is to deny
any affiliation with said "Indie Rock" /
such as: "i'm not a Hersh 'fan' / but just
follow th'shifts in time signiture on that
first Throwing Muses album. i mean, she's
as much a proto.God of MATH ROCK as feckin'
Zappa, Fripp or - sheesh - even RUSH..."]

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Leafy

Practice of Persuasion

from: [info]wonderleafy
date: Jan. 16th, 2007 03:20 pm (UTC)
Link

Oh, that's wonderfully succinct. As I wrote this I felt the strong "brevity is the soul of wit" call... but brevity requires shared assumptions in order to work, and I felt I had to build those...

Hm...

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Dauntless Expatriated Zulu (and shoots back)

(no subject)

from: [info]techieguru
date: Jan. 16th, 2007 05:32 pm (UTC)
Link

I loathe being told that I'm a feminist, or linked to the insipid "Yes, You Are" article. Loathe it.

As far as I'm concerned, people cannot accidentally/passively be part of an active movement or group. I can't accidentally be a KKK member (though I can be a passive racist). I can't be a Republican without knowing it (though I can be a misogynist without realising it). I can't be a feminist without realising that I am, but I can support similar ideals. But I'm still not a feminist. I have to want to be, and I have to agree to be. And I don't, and I don't.

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Leafy

I actually wondered how you, in particular, would react to this post

from: [info]wonderleafy
date: Jan. 16th, 2007 05:53 pm (UTC)
Link

I have no idea what this Tomato nonsense is about (that's the same link I used above, actually). I've been linked to her twice now, two separate posts, and both times I wanted to ask the linkers, "You do realize this doesn't actually SAY anything, don't you?"

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misanthropegirl

(no subject)

from: [info]misanthropegirl
date: Jan. 16th, 2007 07:20 pm (UTC)
Link

Initially I had a lot of things I thought about responding with, but in the end I respect your right to feel however you want about feminism, your right to label yourself as such or not, your right to participate in a movement or find it irrelevant.

What's somewhat distasteful to me is that while I don't agree with everything you are saying, I certainly don't HATE you for NOT being a feminist. And yet, you claim to HATE feminists, people you seem to believe for the most part are just people trying to have hope for a better society.

Yet, I guess even that I understand. The same way you associate feminism with women who are shrill, irrelevant, bores...I have found in my experience that women who claim to hate feminists (or sometimes even just to hate women) are usually trying to ingratiate themselves to men by denigrating the more opressed group and thereby reaping the societal benefits of the less opressed group. I associate those sentiments with an atittude of, "Hey, guys. I'm not one of THOSE girls you find threatening and unattractive. I'm a cool girl."

I'm not saying that's what you've expressed here, but I don't know...to me those words still sort of work in the service of those ideals. Men often find women who call themselves "feminists" scary, and women (especially women who believe that femniists are just women striving for a social equality she finds impossible) who justify that opinion by saying, "Yeah, you're right. Feminists are annoying," may just be upholding the status quo and saying its ok to find equality between the sexes unappealing, whether or not that's their intetion.

I don't agree with a lot of your sentiment, but there are certainly parts I do agree with. And its part of my feelings about feminism, at least, that every person has the right to think for themselves about gender, sex, and what-have-you.

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Leafy

thanks for responding

from: [info]wonderleafy
date: Jan. 16th, 2007 07:34 pm (UTC)
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I'll agree with you that it appears frequently the case that women (like most people) sometimes prefer to side with the winning team, but then that raises the question of why, with our sexual power, massed intellect, and greater numbers in America, are we still NOT the winning team. Are we sure we're not? And if we're not, again, why not?

And, too, I find that most of the guys I meet who call themselves "feminists" have (so far) largely been the smarmy kind of individual who thinks that adopting a label's going to get him into my bed. Just saying the smarminess can (but not always) go both ways.

Oh, and I tried to tone down my language in this post, because I know that when I say "hate" people get really uncomfortable and I usually don't mean it. Sorry about that. I only dislike feminists when they're being feminists, like I said, and really I only DESPISE them when I'm in a snit about people (hating Christianity quickly takes me to feminism-hating) taking great concepts and ruining them with dogmatism. But none of that's enough to make me want to burn a cross on your lawn.

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you already know how this will end

How did I miss this?

from: [info]violalee
date: Jan. 21st, 2007 12:16 am (UTC)
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I have never sided myself with feminists because of these reasons above. I once had a friend who said, "You are, indeed, a feminist. You just aren't political and vocal."

I am sure I would have a much more fantastic reply if my head wasn't reeling from my latest bout of drama.

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